Maps, Directions, and Place Reviews
Criticism
At the very least there should be facts included. Bose publishes no technical data on any of their speaker line (check their website). Try visiting Sennheiser, Onkyo, DALI or any other major audio equipment vendor and you'll find information such as impedence, frequency response and THD listed on their specifications page. The drivers of the Bose Acoustimass system, which retails for around $1300, are sold for $35 a pair here. The speakers in question contain paper cones in a thin plastic casing.
This article contains a number of problems with their system backed up by facts and test results. Until this article becomes balanced rather than PR speak I'm adding a disupted neutrality tag. Defsac 06:11, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
I see nothing about the article in its current form that makes it "imbalanced". The article states FACTS about the company, contains no opinion about the products, lists a few products, and links to its website. I see no reason to have a neutrality disputed tag on the article, therefore, I am removing it. Every company out there is criticized or disliked by someone, not just bose.
The article states: "Excessive Bass at the cost of Treble (The lack of Treble bothers Audio Veterans, Audio Engineers, and Audiophiles the most)"
Discussion: Bose designs speakers to deliver flat radiated total power over the audio spectrum rather than to deliver a flat "on axis" frequency response in an anechoic environment, the traditional measure of a loud speaker. Indeed, traditional speakers with front-facing tweeters mounted in a sizable baffle, do demonstrably radiate forward a noticeably higher level of upper frequencies, the baffle-mounted tweeters insuring a strong frontal lobe at the higher frequencies. And the lack of these lobed high freqencies can be interpreted as "inadequate treble." The flat radiated power criterion is directly correlated to the sound fields in a typical live performance space where the dominant received sound is omnidirectional in its arrival at the pina of the ear for virtually all in the audience. In a home, however, the traditional loudspeaker does not attempt to duplicate the spatial fields of a concert hall; BOSE speaker do attempt to do that. If ones criterion is duplication of the sound field of a traditional loudspeaker in a typical home listening environment, then, indeed, the BOSE speakers will be seen as "lacking treble." If, however, the criterion is a recreation of the experience of a live performance, the BOSE design may be judged, correctly, as the better choice. Which experience one prefers is entirely subjective. Hence, the Bose directive is to let your own ears be the judge of which you prefer.
As for A/B comparisons, they are notoriously difficult to do fairly and well; small differences in volume, say 3dB, will be judged by most listeners as quality differences rather than differences of sound level. The louder speaker will often be heard as having the "better" sound--a reality that is well known to audio salesmen who arrange for the speaker they wish to sell -- the speaker of the week whose manufacturer has the highest current "spiff"--to be played at a very slightly louder volume in an A/B test.
Bose Speaker Problems Video
intellexual.net piece
As I said, I'm putting it back in. Links are not just for providing readers with objective, factual data. On a subject on which there is controversy, links to opinionated pieces from either side are perfectly fine so long as they are clearly separated from the article itself (they are). As an example, I point to creation science-- many of the links there are pure opinion, with no basis in fact or indeed reality. As you can see, it's really irrelevant whether the linked article is right or not so long as it accurately expresses a significant group's collective opinion on the matter. I have relinked it stating that it is an "opinion piece." Any further objections? SVI 05:51, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Positive bias?
Below are from the edits on 23:20, 20 February 2006 came from G_25I am listing this in the talk page simply because its the 1st time I noticed someone being biased in a positive way towards Bose.
Some of what was listed by the user I think does deem some consideration to be included. Yet most of it was of an opinionated nature (just like most biased reviews) and unfortunately can't be used. If the user would cite any sources it would go a long way to help create a counterbalance to the criticism section of the article.
The intellexual.net article that was disputed by G_25 is referring to an older discontinued Bose system (it even had a passive bass). The inclusion of the link is dubious at best, but due to its infamy on the net it would be hard to completely ignore it. Using the intellexual.net article to talk about current Bose products is akin to talking about the iniquities of Windows XP but basing those on an article about Windows 98. I believe that it should be mentioned next to the link that this is talking about a discontinued and outdated product.
I hope that this can create a dialog that ends up with a more balanced and impartial article. Thanks for you time (UKPhoenix79 08:54, 21 February 2006 (UTC))
Thanks for moving it, I actually thought it should be in the discussion page anyway. I'm new to this. However, I do think Bose has had maybe a tad too much critism. My statements I truly belive are true, and I do know many places and forums where it has been said the article at intellexual is wrong. If I can find the articles I will cirtainly post them.
Maybe the 'bashers' haven't actually seen the drivers in the latest systems, there is a rubber surround on the Bass drivers and a silky but papery material for the cone area. The excursion is quite impressive. The twiddlers and made of the silky/papery type material and has a foam surround (which Bose assures me it does not rot).
I know a few people in the business selling Bose systems. I'm not a newbie when it comes to sound systems, and I'm not going to go round saying: "Go get a Bose". Yes, they are somewhat expensive, probably a massive markup - but I own a few Bose products. Not a single has failed, yet a Klipsch system I had on my PC failed after a year and a half, the internal amp had to be fixed. I'm also quite happy with the way they sound, ok, I'm sure there is better... I've heard better, but they are bigger - and generally cost the same. I'd rather have my desk space back. Needless to say, those klipsch are replaced by Bose Companion 3s which sound good, but in a different way. The Klipsch had very loud treble, and overboosted lowermid-bass. The Bose is vety subtle and doesn't hurt my ears as much as the Klipsch. But this is personal preference.
The statements about the acoustimass freq response is true due to my own testing on a Lifestyle 35. It may be different on the other models. However, I don't feel as though I'm missing anything and a 30Hz - 16Hz sweep is perfect, sounds fine - no gaps, no volume increase or decrease, or at least not noticable to the human ear. Down below 30Hz, it does loose the power handling - but most 'cubed' subwoofers only truly reach 30Hz, unless your spending £800 or more on your subwoofer alone. I've heard a Velodyne really hit hard against a Bose, but it was much larger and cost a lot more. So basically, Bose has it's place in the market. It may not be the best, but it's miles ahead of the £1000 HTiB systems. The thing I do praise Bose for is the all-in-one system, it means home users can get good sound, while it being easy to use.
I actually know the full specs for the Companion 3s. 18wrms per channel sats., 60watt Compact Acoustimass with DVC driver. The response on a sweep was about 28Hz - 17Khz. Don't use this as a real information, it's from my own self tests using audio measurement software. The wattages though are in RMS IEC and are correct information, from Bose.
Considering the size of the speakers, I find those specs acceptable and I don't feel £200 was way too much, it was overpriced by a little, but not grossly overpriced.
I'm not writing all this to directly Biad towards Bose... I'm just pointing out that with the newer products I've tried and tested, and actually use some of them - there are some mis-conceptions about the Bose systems.
I disagree with the statements about they have no highs and no lows, they are not accentuated - I find them perfecly balanced.
Bose don't produce specs for a few reasons. One being it can confuse consumers. I think this is a get out for them, as I know they use Psychoacoustics.
The ABS plastic they use, will have a resonant freq. To prevent disortion the speaker cannot produce that freq. Bose will not leave it out, instead they use Psychoacoustics to fill in those missing freq. Therefore, Bose graphs will always look poor in some places and look to have levels of high distortion.
Infact, I've never got most of their systems to distort fully - even with different types of distortion such as Power Handling distortion, or distortion from a freq out of the capabilities of the drivers.
I also disagree when people say they use cheap parts, they are far from cheap - they are not the most expensive... but the drivers are not $35 each. They are not OEM, they are actual Bose drivers which Bose make themselves. They hardly ever fail, they have a good response for such a small driver and they cut out the problems with crossover issues from tweeter to mid-bass, they also have good power handling - while being small. The electronics inside are of good quality too, as I said, not a single driver or unit has ever failed - nor have I heard many reports of systems failing.
It's true Bose uses weird ways of getting sound out of speakers, but so what? It will suit some people and not others.
I'm trying to refrain from making this a 'for bose/against bose' - but Bose has it's problems, just like any other speaker. None are perfect. The guy who works at that shop selling Bose I mentioned earlier, said: "All speakers distort, just choose the one that least offends you"
Therefore, let the people decide... I am sick of these Bose arguments everywhere - Bose are not a bad company in themselves and I really do think their products have a place and don't actually sound as bad as people make them out to be. Sure, you say there's better... and guess what? I'm sure there's better than your Paradigims... there's always going to be better, there's always going to be some that are better value than others... but at the end of the day. If someone likes Bose or buys Bose... Lets not get mad.
And maybe give Bose a valid chance, wipe the slate clean - go to Bose themselves if you can and talk to their engineers and discuss your views... infact their guys are very nice people and they DO know more about sound than anyone here or in the forums... trust me. Go talk to them, Bose actually listens to it's customers so go visit a few guys there (trust me, if you go to their forum on the website and ask to visit them, I'm sure they will let you) and share your views about Bose. Maybe then, Bose will become better for you guys and improve it's image to audio boffins with a new line of 901s?
The whole point of this, is to give some of the views from a different side, and why some of the critism may be incorrect. The only true way to find out, and Bose himself says it: Listen. Use your ears and not the measurement instruments... which one do you like more? Then choose that!
If anyone has questions about this please feel free to post here, but please keep your comments reasonable and no bashing/flaming towards me, just describe why you feel that my point is incorrect and maybe give some reasons why you feel that way about that product/speaker.
SVI - How do you know what I've said is incorrect? And, no I'm not offended. I'm just interested in hearing why you feel my statements are un-true?
Some info: http://www.pcmag.com/image_popup/0,1871,s=1617&iid=85387,00.asp (Mirrors the altecs response almost, but the altecs are louder by the looks of it - but I've found the C3s to be more than loud enough)
And in case any of you were wondering: I do not work for Bose, but I do know people whom sell their gear and work with Bose. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by G_25
Thanks for the reply, yes it was rather long, sorry about that. I'll leave it at that, and say no more on this - as you say, this is the wrong place. I was wrong in trying to give some of the other sides of the story on the Wikipedia... it's just I came across the critism but no actual counteracting thoughts listed... it just makes Bose look like total rubbish... maybe they are. I dunno... but as I've said I'm quite happy with the Companions 3s and dont feel as though they are 'bad'. I've heard many other high-end systems, even some £18,000 massive floorstanders from B&W, and Linn in the UK, they are impressive - but price? size? amps? players? It's all added cost, and then there's the setting up. The problem with those forums, is articles about Bose cause major arguments (which is wrong, everyone is entitled to an opinion, no matter what it may be.
I understand totally why people dislike them (I hope you dont think I am a newbie to sound, I know exactly what all the measurements mean, etc and why people dislike bose), but I haven't had any of the problems people claim with the Bose systems (I dont feel I need more treble, mid or bass, or missing any sound compaired to a pair of floorstanding Klipsch, etc). Maybe I'm listening to a different range of products those people. I don't know, but there again, everyone is different. I've spoken in depth with people whom dislike Bose... or just have never bought Bose but have used say, KEF. It varies, some dislike the sound - others just think it's overpriced but they sound decent, and one guy actually said: Bose are quite good, but for the moment I'm happy with my KEF system... My reply was: but have you heard a Bose system? He said: "Yeah, they are excellent, wouldn't mind getting some 301s for the front". It's all mixed, just theres more bad than good, and I have heard people say: "Bose is rubbish" - They've heard a system and then changed their minds - just because a bunch of people in a forum say they are rubbish, doesn't mean you can go round saying it, but some people think they can... trying products for yourself is the only true way to know whats good/bad about a product. It would be nicer to say: "Why not try a few systems, and listen to the Bose before buying it? Ensure your happy the Bose is best for you first!" Instead of: "Bose are rubbish, they use paper drivers and they only sound as good as a cheap Home entertainment system" - and thats a false claim, because they don't exactly sound 'that' bad...
But, this is not the place to discuss this as you say. So silence from now.... but before I leave this alone, I just want to say (not to you SVI but anyone else reading this): Please just lets all get on, accept someone eles opinion - just advise the forum poster to listen to some other speakers but don't go round saying Bose are rubbish when, quite frankly some of you haven't tried a Bose system (not meaning that to be all of you). At the end of the day, listen and decide with your very own ear. Don't listen to me, don't listen to anyone - not even BOSE... clean sheet shopping, check everything out and see what you like best based wholely on what you feel is most important, if it be SQ, Volume, Size, etc. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by G_25
Below is a Reply from 86.112.238.117:
I will create a user account, but before I do - so you know this is the same user, I will post in the same way.
Rightyo, I wish I had the extensive back-up - but without proper scientific labs I obviously cannot produce graphs that Audio guys out there will trust to be accurate. I also understand that you cannot just take my word for these points I mentioned.
I will try to answer some of the questions you have had about my post:
1) You mention I understand about the drivers and I need images to prove this.... I actually have looked at a few drivers open air of a mates who actually sells Bose systems. He decided to take a good look into the Companion 3 speaker system which is Bose's lowest cost 2.1 Computer Speakers. I know for a fact it wasn't paper alone, it looked type of shiney and plasticky, but it wasn't plastic. This guy told me it was either treated paper or Bose's own material they are starting to use, which has the same properties/sound as paper drivers but resists rot/damp and tonal change in different temp rooms. The acoustimass module had two voice coils (this can be seen by anyone using a very bright light in a dark room to look behind the grill - I wish I had pictures and if I can get this guy to send me some I will upload them ASAP). I know that this will probably not prove to any of you guys that I am correct, but maybe you'd like to check out in a shop the Companion 3s, take a small powerful light and look behind the grills - you can see the drivers to a degree and cirtainly make out the type of material and the cone's.
The rest of my information has been gained from various sweeps I've sent over the Bose systems. I have a series of test MP3s/WAVs and CD's with sine waves on. From 20Hz to 48Khz (for high resolution supertweeters) - and I noted in stages of 1 from 20 to 30Hz - that the system started to produce an audiable and very deep resonance at about 28Hz. This was 8 stages into the test. 20Hz was a faint sound, but in reality - I feel the Bose acoustimass does go low enough to be acceptable for a £200 sound system. I noted the sounds it does produce, it did very well (to the ear). In the treble region, don't expect much above 18Khz at all... theres a slight peak there but after that it rolls off... but it depends on your ears. Personally I don't find the Bose lacks high treble - but this is subjective.
Again, I wish I had graphs and data to show you - but it isn't verifyable because I'm not a qualified sound engineer - I don't work in a speaker company - I just like music, enjoy good quality sound, and I'm also a musician. Therefore, I am quite critical to the way a speaker sounds. I can't stand cheap £30-40 speakers, they infuriate me - the thing is the Bose... I just can't seem to find the problems people have with them. No highs? No problem for me, I hear the high notes but they don't hurt my ears the same way a Tratrix horn on a Klipsch does, it sounds rather balenced and natural. And about bass? I find it more than acceptable, it maybe not the punchiest, deepest, earth moving bass - but it sounds musical and refined to me. It's not overblown and flashy (but nor do I think Bose wish them to be). I've found Bose systems just correctly balenced. Maybe it's my room, positioning, etc. I don't know, but to me the system performs very well. Though, if anything there are a few overpriced products in their range. I do note that the 201s from Sound and Vision Online are only £139, which is a steal (they arn't that bad for surround sound speakers, or even for music if you have a subwoofer to match up). They I feel are probably the best value, and the Companion 3 speakers too(I'm not saying the companion 3s are the best speakers, because they have their problems such as a small ambient hiss from the acoustimass - but for £200 a very faint hiss from an acoustimass module isn't vetry important because I found it was far less than even some expensive amplifiers I have, and it seemed quieter than an Onkyo - but the Lifestyle acoustimass has no hiss whatsoever). The triports are not too bad as well. Their Wave system is a tad over the top, it would be better at £299. The Lifestyle systems could do with a few hundred off the cost too. When you look though, at the features of the lifestyle systems and the engineering that goes into the products design it's all very clever (AdaptIQ, Umusic, Bose Link, are all excellent features that very few other systems have). I guess you actually pay for a patented product that you can only get from Bose. If their waveguide is the most expensive way of getting bass from 2.5" speakers - I guess all your paying for is the engineering. Whereas the soundworks 740 from Cambridge Sound Works just uses a small woofer unit, which could produce distortion or rattling because it's engineering will be less detailed because of it's cheaper design, though it may sound bassier on some material meaning you would probably choose that over the Bose because of it's flashy bassy sound. But at the end of the day, if you prefer that instead of the Wave then why not get it? Long as when someone buys a wave don't shout at them for it. They are a different person, so will have different tastes in bass/treble and quality. Personally, how I know a speaker is quality is by it reproducing a series of music styles (classical, rap, pop, world) with great clarity, sufficient power without reliability problems, a natural sound, zero distortion and reproducing the musical instrument being played with a sound close to that of the instrument in a normal room or concert hall. This is coming from a guy though, that can find a slight rattle, buzz or slightest sound of distortion in almost all speakers. I haven't been able to find any major problems with Bose speakers, but because of their great clarity they can sometimes show up the quality of the recording. I can't listen to 64k MP3s on Bose speakers (it makes the speakers and the music sound really bad), and even at 128k it's still evident your listening to MP3 compressed audio. Where it starts to get much better is a very well recorded CD/SACD/DVD-A, 2000K WAV files, or 320k bitrate MP3s.
I just wish I could back all this up with data, but at this moment in time I do not have images of the drivers nor of any graphs as I used my ear for the tests I have done. About reliability, I know this from many retailers that sell Bose, as well as people I know have Bose speakers. Maybe the old Bose drivers did look rather sad, cheap and tatty. But their latest drivers as I have seen, look perfectly fine: http://www.bose.co.jp/images/products/125/cristal_driver.jpg (This looks almost like whats in the Companion sats. Other than the companions have a larger surround and bigger dust cap)
You see the cones on these: http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002TSA9W.01-A228GNTXW0TH0L._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg (They look like like a similar shine, so it's obviously not rottable paper, maybe it's treated with something, or maybe it's the Bose material this mate of mine was saying about)
The acoustimass drivers on the latest gear seem to have a type of rubber or fabric surround, which is very large to handle the high excursion. Heres also a Bose cone on the right: http://www.bose.co.uk/images_global/technologies/acoustics/2cones.jpg Though the one here does look like standard treated paper, which doesn't not infer the speaker is of poor quality. I sure doubt it would rot, and Bose will replace if it does - as I know people whom have the old 901s and Bose have replaced all the surrounds free of change.
The article link about the old Bose acoustimass not having supernatural excursion, actually, try doing the lamp to view the woofer behind the grille, you will find that the Xmax of the Bose drivers is quite large for the size - and plus, the reviewer didn't understand the Acoustimass technology which is to get deep bass with less speaker excursion.
Before this gets way too long, I'll leave it here for the moment and try to gather as much proof as I can for my statements. I'll talk with the guys I know who may be interested in sending some technical data.
I also noticed, if you go to Bose japan www.bose.co.jp it gives out IEC wattages and some bandwidth ranges. ;-)
pro.bose.com also gives technical specification of the Pro gear.
I hope this is sufficent for the moment while I collect more infromation sources for you.
EDIT: Just created account. :-) I'm sorry if there is typo's or errors with my grammer. I think I type way too quick. Please do correct them if you wish to do so.
--g_25 20:26, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I used AudioTestBench and TrueRTA, plus a signal gen. I used a microphone designed for use with SPL monitoring, connected to the sound card, which then you can optimise the microphone for use with AudioTestBench. It's pretty accurate I would say, because a cheap pair of Creative speakers had terrible distortion levels, and a peak at about 75-80Hz to create that punchy bass often found in cheap systems that appeals to novices. The Bose wasn't perfectly flat, and freq. the test bench didn't pick up I could hear perfectly fine (probably the psychoacoustics Bose is using there, but if you can hear it just as loud as any other freq. why complain. I must admit, the Companion 3 did roll off very badly below 28Hz, but considering the size and the musical sound of the acoustimass I wasn't un-impressed. The lifestyle systems do seem to go lower in listening tests, but I havent done any measurements with those, yet. I would say, the Acousimass in the lifestyle systems rolls off after 25Hz, or 20Hz very sharply, therefore explaining the deeper bass on some tracks. It's all subjective anyway, and your correct - each to their own. I'm happy with the Companion 3s, but someone else may not be, it's just one of those things. All ears are different.
--g_25 23:43, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
To ease this up... the correct frequency response is below:
40Hz - 18Khz -/+ 3db 35Hz - 20Khz -/+ 6-8db
<35 is not existant, the driver doesn't hardly even move on some freq - probably due to active EQ. The excusrion on anything in the 35-45Hz range is an impressive sight.
I did find 36Hz accaptable though, at about - 5-6db - it would be fine for music.
I cannot comment on the AM15 systems, these are differen't and may have the same response as the companions - I'm not sure.
May I also note that on those tests it was at just slightly less than full volume on the puck, this was to get a good idea of the system under high load.
It's probably true, the Acoustimass on the Companions doesn't go with intense power below 30Hz, but the thing is - I don't notice any loss of any deep bass, it's musical and has no port noise or distortion. Therefore I'm happy. I'd much rather the woofer produce no 20Hz than produce it with port noise.
It's also true, that almost all P.A. Systems and especially those in Cinemas roll off after 40Hz, I've seen some do 30Hz, and multi milion £ THX ones do 25Hz.... but most Cinemas systems roll off at 40Hz, so why is the Bose worse than a Cinema, when Cinema systems generally do 40Hz - 16Khz, as the UCI in my area does. It's not a complaint or POV for Bose, it's just food for thought really... Most subs for P.A. use don't do <40Hz. Look at the specs for say JBL, Mackie and it's quite common.
--g_25 23:15, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
My consensus
But I think that Bose has came a long way since the intellexual.net incident. Bose has innovated, improved, and even went way beyond their basic beliefs to put their products up to par. They are very serious about their reputation, and their latest "skull crusher", the Bose QuietComfort 3, is a result of the company's understanding of ergonomics, psychoacoustics, detail-orientation, and even customer relations, though they might need to work on their price points a bit, usually they had to price their products higher than usual to protect their patents and copyrights. It may be possible that Bose might be able to think more outside of the box, look at how overzealous other competitors might do their speakers, refine, refurbish, improve, and polish-up their patented technologies, and quite possibly put what I call "the Bose-bashers" to shame in the future with countless innovations and improvements to their lineup. Bose's QuietComfort 3 headphones, and quite possibly more Bose loudspeakers to come, might be able to match and/or exceed competitors from Bang and Olufsen, Klipsch, Sennheiser, Sony, and a few others in the future, thus today's Bose is committed to putting their products up to par. -- Mark Kim (Reply/Start Talk) 22:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
FR Charts, Acoustimass, Intellexual, etc...
All this talk, even on the discussion page, seems a little over the top to me. Don't you think other contributors and readers to this article and discussion would be better served and informed by directing them to an external link to one of the many internet forums where the merits of Bose and other systems are subjects of daily conversation? I think it's best to use this page as a place to discuss the information used and the information available to create an ever better article.
I don't like the intellexual rant myself, and question it's value as an external link, but it is just a link to an external site, and it is labeled as an opinion piece. Perhaps the label could be modified to read something like "opinion piece on a discontinued speaker system".Waulfgang
POV Content
This article is very fanboyish, and has way too much ad-speak.
Why add intellexual.net?
I had to soft-remove the link for now because I want a full explanation on why it deserves to be here before it is in this article, as I feel that the intellexual link tends to be too extremist (and if I had the chance, I would flame that webmaster). Give me a couple of reasons why it should be even in the article, why the link is warranted for, what information you think is useful in that page, and why it deserves to be recognized in this article, as that web page I found out has been outdated and has not been updated since a slew of new Bose products made it to store shelves. Unless I see a newer version of this page, then I will have no choice but to hard-delete the intellexual.net link. I won't hard-delete it right now (but I did a soft-delete) because I want a discussion why it should be here before I do anything. -- Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 19:47, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
- They do make a point of showing their bias there at intellexual.net, don't they? Considering oneself "part of a small sect of audio enthusiests [sic] who loathe ... Bose Corp." puts them on the other side of where we want to be in relation to NPOV. If we use the information there at all, we would probably do well to find their sources, evaluate their accuracy and then use just those sources here. --Matthew K 01:00, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, that may be a little bit biased. But, it all holds true. Do me a favor and google "truth about Bose" or "Bose bashing" and find out what Bose really is. I think this is one of those articles hard to make neutral, due to the fact that some people have been drawn into Bose's advertising scheme and some who look at the facts of what really is happening. Give me some scientific or technological reasons why Bose is good. Andrewwski 01:53, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
All of you make valid points. Let's try to keep in mind that we're working on an encyclopedia article. It needs to be factual, any debatable statements must be backed up with citations, and it must present a NPOV. It is a fact that many audiophiles dislike Bose (to put it mildly), and I could easily round up fifty audiophiles on any day of the week who would cheerfully tell me "Bose sucks" and why--but that would be original research. Another bit of verboten original research I could do would be to haunt my local big-box electronics megastore, where I have no doubt I could find fifty non-audiophiles who either own or aspire to owning Bose products. Are the anti-Bose audiophiles' opinions worth more than the pro-Bose non-audiophiles' opinions? In my opinion, yes, but according Wikipedia's NPOV ideals, no.
I have to agree, btw, that neither blatantly biased web sites (whether Bose-bashing or Bose-boosting) nor discussion boards seem like very good sources to cite. The former are not where one might reasonably expect to be referred from an encyclopedia, and the latter suffer from a complete lack of editing, not to mention equal space afforded both to experts and to trolls. (While much of what it says may remain valid, the intellexual.net article is rather outdated.) If we can't find relatively objective references, and if these various statements and links are bound to provoke continual dissent, how about thinning out the article to a bare-bones just-the-facts entry--i.e., where Bose is located, who founded them and when, types of products they manufacture, etc., with no allusions whatsoever to their failings (or to their alleged technological successes)? Does that seem reasonable? Believe me, I have very definite opinions about Bose, but I suspect that Wikipedia articles are not good places to air them. Perhaps I'm naïve. Rivertorch 04:14, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Can someone explain why the intellexual link is considered outdated, yet the 1975 review of 901's isn't? If there isn't a coherent argument to be made we need to have both or none. --Zambaccian 11:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Intellexual.net link
The intellexual.net link should be returned as a reference in the "Criticism" section. This article currently does not have any references or links to technical reviews of Bose hardware. The intellexual.net link provides one of the few reviews available where someone has actually tested the frequency response of a Bose product. --ptk?fgs 14:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Sanctioned Link
This topic was originally called WARNING: Intellexual.NET Link
I had to revert three times from an anon editor who posted an Intellexual Link labeled "Better Profits Through Marketing". This article has been severely trolled in the past and any links that carries a strong bias against Bose is not allowed in Wikipedia. -- Mark Kim (U * T/R * CTD) 05:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Honestly what the hell. Any external links will have to be neutral from this point on. -- Mark Kim (U * T/R * CTD) 15:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Says you and whose army? Show me the wiki policy that says links have to be neutral? How can a link using a subjective criterion like "high end audio" be neutral? Show you have a spine and remove all non-neutral content from this article, and then defend those edits. Greglocock 23:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
This link is the only one presented so far which contains third-party frequency response information about a Bose device. We must include the link. --ptk?fgs 01:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, although I have read the link, it carries a heavy bias against Bose. Exclude. -- Mark Kim (U * T/R * CTD) 03:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Addition to that&mdash-it only talks about one product, and the product that Bose no longer makes. Links have to be current, and talk about all products of the company. -- Mark Kim (U * T/R * CTD) 03:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I see no reason why an article with such an in-depth technical analysis of Bose should be excluded simply because the technical results are not in Bose's favor. Mark argues as if it can't be included in the article due to the empirical data itself. This is ridiculous. Bose products, like everything are not perfect and stating so does not constitute "strong bias".12.217.154.246 03:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I'll go ahead and reinstate that god-forsaken Intellexual Link but with conditions--that editors do not mask the link with trolling language. Mark Kim 13:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
it only talks about one product, and the product that Bose no longer makes. Links have to be current, and talk about all products of the company. The Intellexual article discusses the Acoustimas system, which is (a) Still manufactured and marketed by Bose, and (b) is the basis for the "Lifestyle" system, the company's flagship product. Furthermore, the Intellexual article's author took the thing apart and reported detailed findings about its design and build quality to reach his conclusions. I fail to see how a thoroughly researched piece goes out, but fluff pieces stay in. Jedgeco 15:43, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Good to see that reason and the facts won out in this situation. I think the renaming of the article's link in the external links section is acceptable and for the better. It's good to see some factual information added to this article, sorta. With some luck Bose might not sue Wikipedia, either. AscendedAnathema 22:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
This does NOT mean that the link will stay indefinitely because I allowed this link to be here with conditions meaning that users are not to be using the link as a troll and/or users are not trolling the page with anti-Bose propaganda. The link is likely to be removed if I see any instance of trolling (as that link have been used to troll Bose pages in the past) associated with use of the link. That is why I said "There with conditions" because the Intellexual link there remains a privilege and not a right. If I see excessive vandalism which is heavily influenced by that link, the link will be removed. -- Mark Kim (U * T/R * CTD) 23:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
P.S. That link is also in dangerous grounds because it may be likely that Bose MIGHT sue both Wikipedia and Intellexual if a Bose person finds out about it, so that is why it's very important not to base edits and/or troll the article based on heavy utilization with the Intellexual link. That link is a privilege and not a right.
In the past, that link has been used as what I call a "troll link" against Bose Headphones--that is why I imposed conditions against that link that it is not to be used in a fashion which it would be used to troll against the article. I would have to remove it if the link is abused by Bose-bashers, as it has been noted that this link would be used to troll Bose articles in the past. -- Mark Kim (U * T/R * CTD) 03:48, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
And it was used to troll certain Bose articles in the past. Nuff said. That is why I'm sanctioning the link to ensure that people does NOT troll based on the influence of the link. Like I said, if the link is abused to the point where the trolling is based on the influence of the Intellexual Link, it will be removed and deleted from the article. -- Mark Kim (U * T/R * CTD) 03:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Having read the article it is hard to think of it as anything but trying to drive in a single point. Bose is bad. It has no other point as it is overwhelmingly biased. So ok it does take apart one of Boses home entertainment systems does tests on it and that seams ok but then I looked at the date and I read up on what system it was. Bose hasn't actually made since the turn of the century! The system has changed since then and now has a powered bass and since the article focuses on the lack of mids and lows that a powered subwoffer would fix why does this link have to stay? So I read the talk page archives and I saw that this issue has come up before and it was decided to be removed since "the intellexual.net review is unsigned and is published on what appears to be an unknown individual's personal web site, its subject was a technologically unremarkable product which is long defunct and whose performance may bear little relation to that of its successors, and it discusses the product in a gleefully negative framework that is anything but neutral and unbiased and is thus of dubious value as an encyclopedic link." and because it "would be the same as having a page about how horrid the Apple Lisa was on apples main page while comparing the Apple Lisa to newer computers." Does anyone have another link? Something that would also test one of Boses current products? I think it would be interesting especially if it was done in a dispassionately scientific way accompanied with blind tests from Bose and something else in the same price range to see if people can tell which one is Bose! That would be fascinating. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.80.57.57 (talk o contribs).
Stage of Blatant Disputes
It appears that we all have entered into a state of blatant disputes as of right now. I have a anon, myself, and UKPhoenix79 stating that the Intellexual.NET link has to stay away from this article while Greglocock, Ptkfgs, Anathema, and their anon preferring that the Intellexual.NET link is there for some reason. This article might be in a stage of blatant disputes since we appear not to be in full agreement on the fate of the Intellexual.NET link. -- Mark Kim (U * T/R * CTD) 14:57, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Prove it!
It has came to my attention that you really, really, really want the Intellexual link there. Prove that the link does not violate WP:NPOV, prove that it deserves to be there. Please read the article a couple of times and list the areas where the article is neutral, where the article is heavily anti-Bose biased. Now read the Bose website, and I MEAN the entire Bose website. Do your homework. Read the other reviews and compare them to the Intellexual link. Post all of your findings here in this talk page, what is neutral, what is not from Intellexual. Prove that it deserves to be there. Don't just claim it--prove that it deserves to be there. -- Mark Kim (U * T/R * CTD) 04:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
More Googling is necessary then
Judging from what you said here, it becomes imminent that you still favor the Intellexual link for WP:NPOV purposes. However, it would be necessary to work around that just to alleviate the trolling. The reason why I vehemently blasted the Intellexual link is because it promotes trolling. The link can stay, but remains an ongoing disputed link. More Google research through the Internet may be required to make the article a bit more neutral. Some links on the current article's revision may or may not be neutral.
On a sad note, the article's neutrality is, in one sad and unfortunate word, disputed. Judging that you prefer the Intellexual link should remain as a reference for trolling alleviation purposes and because other articles might explain Bose more in detail through the Internet (provided that you can google), I am, unfortunately, going to have to mark the article as not being neutral unless the article's neutrality can be alleviated and that this article reaches class A. -- Mark Kim (U * T/R * CTD) 13:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Mark Kim, please explain exactly what is "trolling" about the Intellexual article, other than it reaches the conclusion that the Bose system is inferior. Jedgeco 19:52, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Nominated for Neutrality Check
I am going to have to nominate this article for a possible POV check since too many people have disagreed with the links that deserve to be in the article. The NPOV state of this article remains unknown as of this time. -- Mark Kim (U * T/R * CTD) 13:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
2¢: The Intellexual.Net link is acceptable as a reference, but is not professional enough as a showcased external link. That said, regarding the current wording, "some audio analysts": The reference only asserts that one nameless somebody has done so on a single unit. Investigating this website, it does not appear to meet the guidelines regarding Wikipedia:Reliable sources. On the whole, this instance of critism seems insignificant. If this is really a big problem, there should be no problem finding a reliable, published, peer-reviewed source on the matter. -Gunslinger47 17:58, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
intellexual review
This website has been debated time and time again. It has been removed after much debate spanning over 2 years. There have been many reasons stated for and against this web sites inclusion. But the reasons for its removal was best summed up with Rivertorch comments
So please don't link this site its POV it lacks verifiability and is tested on a particular product not made by Bose since the late 90's. -- UKPhoenix79 06:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Our last discussion on this topic reached the conclusion that we should retain the link, as it is the only third-party evaluation of Bose frequency response anyone has presented here. UKP, if you'll kindly peruse the topic archive you created yesterday, you'll find that we even discovered that the site was cited by a number of news stories examining why Bose does not publish frequency response data on its speaker systems.
It is pretty disappointing to see that you waited a few months and then thought no one would notice if you swept all that discussion under the rug and went ahead and removed the link anyway. --ptk?fgs 14:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Topic continued at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_2#Bose_Corporation_and_the_intellexual_web_page where it was decided that it was not a reliable source.
Lighten up or the article gets it
You people are worse than my inbred cousins; lots of firearms and no impulse control, but stuck with each other anyway. Like it or not, my 301s are now responsible for world peace, and none of you can take it back.
I can see how frustrated editors are on both "sides", but I am so not going to hang with Bono at my Nobel Peace Prize party if every edit here ends up as a bitter fight to the death. And nobody else gets to contribute either, so this article will continue to deteriorate...which is such a shame since so much of it successfully incorporates all your edits - those are the sections that shine.
Wikipedia is supposed to be fun for everybody. The editors aren't going away, but the minefields have got to go....honestly, what is it going to take to get us to Oslo? Flowanda | Talk 19:39, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
intellexual
Source of the article : Wikipedia
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